New White Shadow Interview (2010)

It don't get no more Hiphop than this. Paco Cruz chops it up with The White Shadow, breakin' shit down for all the youngsta's.


You're a Norwegian Hiphop legend that most know little about, and you've been in the "game" for a (short) lifetime. How did you get into Hiphop?

When a friend brought Rappers Delight by The Sugarhill Gang to a school party in the fourth grade of elementary in 1979, on a mixtape with DJ Dave Dale, who was a local DJ in Geilo, where I'm from. I was into Disco and Funk before that, and had just begun to DJ a bit at home and at school parties, with primitive equipment. Belt-drive turntables, two amp's, and four speakers so I could "mix". Didn't know what a DJ mixer was yet.

Dad (RIP) was a big influence too cause he taught me what Disco and DJ's was, and I grew up with music since he was a musician.

Hip Hop came to Norway with Disco, and Rappers Delight by The Sugarhill Gang, Rhythm Talk by Jocko, and Rap-O Clap-O by Joe Bataan were all on the national top ten in 1980. Since most rap records at the time were 10-15 minutes long some of us kids would compete to see who knew most of the lyrics for Rappers Delight and The Message.

Radio Lux also inspired when they played all the new records imported from the US, and most of the early rap records were played for the first time in Europe there. Rappers Delight, Wheels Of Steel, It's Nasty, The Message, Planet Rock, Play That Beat Mr. DJ, etc.
I heard cutting for the first time in 1981 when they played Wheels Of Steel, and destroyed a couple of turntables because of it.

B-Boy and Graff I saw the first time on some documentaries that aired on Norwegian TV in 82/83, and it made me realize that it was all a part of one culture, and I think most of the old school heads from here have similar experiences. The difference for me was that I started with Disco, got into Hiphop from there, and many who had no particular relation to Hiphop liked rap music and thought it was part of Disco in the late 70's, which it was, as a lot of Disco was played on the Hiphop scene in New York, like Chic, Grace Jones, and even the Human League, and Disco Dj's were the first to use two copies of a record to extend the breaks, and since Hiphop began with Dj's rockin' breaks, and Disco Dj's started with that, Hiphop and Disco were parts of the same dance music scene in New York in the 60, 70 and 80's.

You was the opening dj for major rap acts when you lived in NY in the early 90's (Busta Rhymes, Jay-Z, A Tribe Called Quest, and others). Do you feel that you're getting more recognition in the States than at home?

It's happened that people who know me in the US. have told people in Norway about me, haha, and makes sense to get more props in the US than in Norway since I mostly work with people from there, but it's about the same in Europe and the US I guess, but I'm perhaps more slept on comercially in Norway because I don't make commercial rap music, and have never been much into rap in languages other than English either, so I guess I'm a bit different out here because of that, and I do feel more a part of the US Hiphop scene.

You won the Norwegian DMC Championship in 1988 (and 89) but your first album didn't drop until 2005. Why the hold up?

Not much of a hold up, but a lot of work. Started making beats in 88, moved to New York in 91 and was into DJ'ing then. Played at most clubs there, and produced a bit on the side, and was a member of various crews there, including BDP. It was when I got back from New York that I focused more on making beats, and it helped when I got the SP-1200 sampler too, so I spent a few years in the lab before any records were released.

The first record I was part of was the Jamalski album "Roughneck Reality" on Sony / Ruffhouse in 1993, but that was just cuts. The first record I produced was a House ep on Norwegian Thang Records, distributed by Peppermint Jam in Germany, in 1995, named Poon Thang EP, which I produced under the name of 109th Street Connection, then I worked with various mc's in Norway for a few years that resulted in the Mindstate, and Glammalife singles where I did both beats and cuts. It was the first releases where you can hear my style on both cuts and beats, that I continue to build on nowadays, and after that, Roll Out by D-Stroy in 2001, Leisure by Maylay Sparks and Grand Agent in 2002, then my own EP "Back To The True School" on vinyl, featuring Celph Titled, Grand Agent, D-Stroy, and more, on Uncut Productions in 2003, plus production for Maylay Sparks, Celph Titled, Army Of The Pharaohs, Malik B from The Roots, Supastition, Pizdamen, etc.

In 2003, I finished an early version of my debut album "Renegades", but I wasted a couple of years trying to get it signed to various labels, and went through three record deals in the US. that didn't work out because the labels were either too small and had too low of a budget to implement the release despite the fact that they were pretty well known indie labels, and illegal downloading had just started to kill off the smaller labels as well, so I continued to create new songs, and hook up with various artists during that period, so in 2005 I had a new version of "Renegades" ready, and released it myself. After that, it's been a steady flow of releases, about 3-5 a year, before last and this year, where it's a lot more.

You seem like a perfectionist and a man who does not release the projects until you are 110% satisfied. Do you work mostly as a producer in the studio when working with artists? Or is it beats sent on the Internet?

Thanks. Trying to do my best always, and sometimes I even manage. All the work's done online, and I'm happy bout that. Studio sessions were fun, and we could come up with things we wouldn't otherwise, that way, but there was also a lot more time wasted, and by workin' online mc's trying to be producers, and vice versa is over now which is a good thing, cause we can make a lot more, and better, music that way in my opinion.

How has the Internet changed the game, and how did you hook up with mc's from the US in the early/mid 90's? Cd's in the mail?

Pros: Easier to get in touch with artists, much faster to make music through Email, don't have to waste expensive studio time, costs close to nothing to release an album online, makes my music available easy to a lot more people, free promotion, all you need for recording, etc. is free.

Cons: Hardly ever meet the artists I work with in person anymore which was part of the fun of studio sessions back in the days, illegal downloading has made the whole industry lose a lot of money. I've probably lost several 100 000 Norwegian, due to my albums being easy to get for free online, but when an album's leaked you can pretty much forget about stopping it, so I turn the promotion of being available for free to my advantage instead.

Before the web it was CDs in the mail, phonecalls, and working in the studio, often as part of the deal when booking artists for shows in Europe.


And how do you feel HipHop as a genre has evolved since you first became a fan of the culture?

I think the best era of what you could call real Hiphop was in the 70's before there were records, but only tape recordings of jams in the Bronx. Hiphop became commercial when Rappers Delight dropped, but the early rap records were still far from radio friendly because of their length, so the music that was released in early 80's on labels like Sugar Hill and Enjoy is the closest to real Hiphop because it reflects what was going on at live jams in the Bronx. Starting with Run-DMC the songs got more commercial, 3-4 min. long with hooks to please the radio and pop charts. Hiphop, like other music before it got milked by greedy artists and label execs, and has become more and more commercial ever since. Now Hiphop culture is pop culture, but at the same time there's an underground scene that has more in common with what Hiphop really is because it still consists of mc's with skills on the mic, and beats based on samples, and to some extent breakbeats, but real Hiphop as it was in the beginning you will only experience at jams like the Zulu Nation and Rock Steady Anniversaries nowadays. The way Hiphop's evolved is that those who take it seriously have gotten better at what they do. Styles are more complex now, but on the other hand there is the commercial rap music that's reduced Hiphop to below retarded, but there's Hiphop culture, and rap music culture, and those are two totally different things.

You work with the what we like to call "real" rappers and the "real" hip-hop artists. How do you feel about the developments in the music and sound since the 90's "bling bling" music and up to today's even more ignorant and questionable styles?

The commercial rap artists are not a part of the Hiphop culture, and so they're irrelevant to Hiphop, but hardcore Hiphop is a dying breed. Not many left of us who make that music, but there's a new generation of great up and coming artists, but to hear them you have to search on the web, cause most of them will never get played much on radio, or TV.

There's a select few big corporations who own the major record labels and radio stations in the US, which is the country that determines what blows up worldwide. They decides what gets airplay, and only support braindead party rap or fake gangster shit because they want Hiphop to become a parody of itself. They want to downplay the importance of Hiphop, and clown the hell out of it til no one takes it seriously. We're already there or no?

A little more quality control was a good idea. Maybe it went a bit too far in the 90's when only boom bap was considered real, but at the same time we see what happened when the "rules" were gone. Do we really want Hiphop to be singy-songy pop music? That's not a good thing to me.

Another thing is that Hiphop's starting to get old, and most have been sampled and used, so the days when Hiphop was new, and controversial is for the most part gone anyway. Time for something brand new maybe?

When you look at your discography, there's no doubt that this is one of the most impressive discographies in Norwegian Hiphop, and big names such as: Wordsworth (EMC), Tash (The Alkaholiks), Malik B (The Roots), Easy Mo Bee, Vinnie Paz (AOTP / JMT), Krumbsnatcha, Louis Logic, and Supastition (Lost Colony) are only some of the people you've worked with. Who would you want to work with the most?

Thank you. Many years of hard work to accomplish what I have, but some luck too. I'm very happy that I've had the opportunity to work with most of my favorite artists, because I mostly listen to stuff like Jedi Mind Tricks, Snowgoons, Non Phixion, La Coka Nostra, and so on when it comes to new Hiphop, and have made tracks with most of the cats I liked from back in the days who are still active as well, so there's not that many I still feel that I have to work with. I've worked with most of the legendary mc's on my albums, or on other releases, and most of those who remain are on my next, and final album.

Looking at the Norwegians you have worked with, the list is quite strange. Everything from legendary: Anarad, to .. El Axel, Mad Con, Paperboys, Kleen Cut, and Silje Nergaard (!!!). Do you feel that you are labeled as a strictly Hiphop producer who has more to offer when it comes to other genres too?

It's quite varied, yes, and Disco and Funk is where I come from musically, and released an 80's style Funk / Boogie single online last year, but Hip Hop is my genre, and I have no desire to make music in other genres. I love the 70 and 80's music I grew up on, but I'm fine just listening to it. Perhaps I'll do another House 12" or ep eventually, we'll see.

What are you up to nowadays? And what artists are you workin' with?

I can't talk much about who's on my next album yet, but it's a combo of legends and newer underground artists like my previous joints, and will be an even sicker line up of featured artists than on the "Victory" album. Imma give a little extra on everything since it's the last album. Most of the vocals have been recorded, and are waiting for me to get started on the album. That'll probably be in the fall, so it will be out some time in 2011.

Working with a lot of dope up and coming artists as well, and will be releasing two albums on my label Uncut Productions this year. The first is called "Classic Regulations", together with Infinito 2017 who is a legendary MC from Chicago with more than 200 albums to his credit. We call ourselves Next Universe, and the album is completely different from "Victory". That was an epic, hardcore album, while the Next Universe is laidback and jazzy. Came out digitally on March 1st. on ITunes and Amazon.

I've also signed Mark Deez from Augusta, Georgia to Uncut, and his album drops in August. Mark Deez is one of the best new mc's from the US, and is a part of The Grindhouse Gang along with Powder, Dr. ILL, and Lord Lhus who's also known from the Snowgoons' albums, and Mark's album is the most hardcore album I've been a part of so far. We also have some of the best producers from the US, Europe, and Norway on the album, and we're about 1/3 done.

In addition, I produce and lay cuts on a whole lot of other records. Be on the look out for them online, especially on ITunes, and ughh.com. I can't talk much about them yet, but the last song I did cuts for was featuring Canibus and Kool G Rap.

Not counting Beat Making and Turntabelism, have you ever been into the other "elements"?

All of them. Breakin' and Graff from 83-86 but had no talent so I quit. Rap since 79/80, and I still write sometimes. Have a few tracks out there where I'm on the mic. Don't have mad skills, but am able to lay down a dope verse or two if needed. Dj and producing is what I've been doing for the longest. Dj since 1978, and beats since 1988, and will ease up on producing next year, so I'll most likely finish where I started, as a DJ.

Props to Pablo Cruz for the interview.
Norwegian version at duvet.no

Special: Disco In Norway

I'm currently writing a book about my life as a DJ, and Producer, and DJ'ing in general in Norway, so enjoy this chapter from the book about how Disco and DJ'ing came to Norway in the late 60's.

Disco in Norway was started in 1969 by a guy from Oslo named Tore Løken. After he had spent time on the UK club scene he brought the idea back with him, and decided to start a club in Oslo where musicians and other artists could hang out with like minded people, and others in the music business. The name of the club was Mandagsklubben (The Monday Club), that was private and membership only. Sort of a chill-out zone for people in the Norwegian entertainment industry, artists, musicians, and their girlfriends. Later in ' 69 Tore Løken also started a club open to the general public, and named it Safari. Safari would become the new hot spot in Oslo, being mentioned in music magazines outside of Norway as well. The club had a jungle style interior, and the DJ booth was built to look like a hut.

Tore Løken was the DJ at both clubs, and the first DJ from Norway to play in front of a live audience, as well as the first DJ to play records, and talk on the mic at the same time. More DJ's followed shortly, and guys like the Norwegian radio DJ Jørgen Slips would also start playing in Oslo in 1969 at a club called Soria Moria, as well as DJ Steve Lindquist who would team up with Løken to do the first mobile Disco parties in Norway using Gerard twin turntables, and a 100 watt amplifier to play parties in schools. The biggest amp available at the time was a 1500 watt amp they called Grand Slam that would be used mostly for outdoors events, and Steve Lindquist would be the first DJ to travel to various places in Norway to do gigs with the Rabbit Rock Mobile Disco system, a well known mobile Disco in Norway in the 70's and 80's run by Arne Mørk who was a speedboat racer as well as a pioneer in the Norwegian Disco business. After some time on the road in Norway Rabbit Rock Mobile expanded, and became the biggest mobile Disco in Europe.

The Norwegian singer Halvdan Sivertsen would DJ in his hometown of Bodø in 1971 at the first club there named Polar Disco Club, and playing records during breaks in the performance by Swedish singer Cornelius Wrejsvik is what set off Halvdan's DJ career.

The other mayor cities in Norway like Trondheim, Bergen, and Stavanger also had a live Disco scene, and in Stavanger DJ Per Gjøvåg at Grotten Disco, a bomb shelter turned nightclub, would be the first DJ to get on Norwegian national TV that did a special on him and his club in 1974.



Clubbing spread quickly to all corners of Norway, even small towns like my hometown of Geilo, where DJ's like Per Alm would DJ at the first club here called Mølla in 1970, and in 1975 the first local DJ, Dave Dale, would play Disco parties in youthclubs and hotels, as well as at Mølla, and the other local clubs Sherlock Holmes, and Camus Circus. Per Alm would later become an A&R for Polygram records in Norway, and Dave Dale retired from DJ'ing in 1985.

Once Tore Løken had kick-started the Club and DJ culture, it took about one year tops before it had spread to the whole country from the biggest cities to the smallest villages. The norm in the beginning however was to have a live band on stage, and the DJ's playing records during breaks, so the early days of DJ's playing full nights were kinda hard to swallow for the crowds used to live bands, so they would boo when the DJ's came on, but soon, and as DJ's got better, the live band was replaced by the DJ, and some musicians would even become DJ's instead to be able to pay their bills.

The music played in the early days were inspired by the Hippie movement, and artists like Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Blood, Sweat & Tears, and various progressive Rock bands, along with traditional Rock & Roll like The Beatles, Stones, Kinks, The Monkeys, etc, would be among the dancefloor favorites. From about 1973-74 uptempo Soul music would take over, and artists like Barry White, James Brown, KC & The Sunshine Band, and The Jacksons would become the hot artists among the DJ's and dancers, but all kinds of music was put in the mix, including the Norwegian folk music style called Gammeldans, which is music without a drum beat, played using only Violin and Accordion, that people would do couple-dancing to in between the Soulful Disco sets. In the early days it was recommended by clubowners that DJ's should play a few sets of Gammeldans during the night, probably to have a bit of Norwegian culture present in this new and exciting thing called clubbing, and keep a balance of Norwegian and foreign culture. In the early days it was also an unwritten rule that the DJ's should play three slow songs every hour to keep the crowd from goin' too bananas to the Disco sounds.



The first DJ to beatmix records in Norway was a guy from Oslo named Heavy Henry (RIP), who was inspired by DJ's he had heard mixing when he was partying in the UK. Henry would bring that style of DJ'ing to Norway in 1975, and mixed using two beltdrive turntables. There were no pitch controls, and you had to count rounds of the platters cause it took about three seconds to get them up to full speed, so Henry would mix slowing down or speeding up the platters gently with his fingers to go from one record to the next without losing the beat, as well as using a radio jingle machine for various sound FX. A very expensive piece of equipment back then that he had imported from the UK. Most other DJ's would be very impressed by Heavy Henry because they would mostly either play records from start to finish, or talk on the mic between them, so Henry was known as the best DJ in Norway in the mid 70's because of his mixing skills.



It didn't take long before entrepeneurs realized that clubbing was good business, and in the aftermath of the blockbuster Saturday Night Fever in 1977 the whole world went Disco crazy, and in Norway, like the rest of Europe, acts like Donna Summer, Boney M, Bee Gees, and Abba would have big hits with their more polished style of Disco that would appeal to the masses, from children to senior citizens. Disco was becoming big business, and clubs opened up left and right. Those were the happy days for club owners and DJ's alike. There were several booking agencies, IDEA, and Nor Booking that would hire DJ's, and book them to play at various clubs all over Europe, Bacchus booked worldwide, and Disco Sound for DJ's in Norway.

The DJ's would make a set fee that would be about $500 for a night, and about $3500 for a month as the resident DJ at a club. Clubowners would get whatever was left after bills, DJ, and staff were paid, and we're not talking about chump-change. The business would gross so much after a while that the Norwegian IRS would become very interested in the scene. They would hire people to make sure the right amount of taxes were paid by the clubowners, and would raid afterhours clubs that did private parties where the illegal sales of alcoholic beverages, drug abuse, and sex was the common thing, and some clubs would be shut down because of legal action by the IRS and the Police, but as one club was shut down, another started. The legal nightclubs had to close by 4am due to Norwegian regulations, but the illegal afterhours spots, often situated at someone's private home, or a basement, would be open ' til at least 9am, or for as long as people wanted to party.



By the late 70's, demand for 12" singles with extended remix versions of songs were high among DJ's, but no record stores would carry them in Norway, so Norwegian DJ's would travel to London to buy the latest 12" singles at shops like Groove Records in the Soho area, made famous by Tony Prince's Disco charts on 208 Radio Lux because the charts were compiled by Groove Records. The store was owned and run by an elderly and friendly lady named Mrs. Palmer who was well into her sixties, but still an expert on Soul, Funk, and Disco music, who would serve the hungry Norwegian DJ's with the latest 12" Disco singles. That way the Norwegian clubbers were lucky enough to be able to dance to the hottest new tunes only a couple of weeks after they were released in the US.

In the early 80's specialist DJ shops would open in Norway, like Funkytown in Stavanger run by a local DJ named Åge Holgersen, Fotokopi, Immerslund, and Hot News in Oslo, Mike Lewis record shop in Grimstad, and a few others, would import 12"s from the US and UK to supply DJ's all over Norway. In Oslo a record pool simply named Record Pool was started to serve DJ members with promo vinyls. Mike Burke record shop put ads in the biggest Norwegian newspaper VG advertising 12" singles to DJ's with a phonenumber to call to buy the records. That was in 1981, and some of the titles advertised were Yarbrough & Peoples' Don't Stop The Music, Blondie's Rapture, SOS Band's Take Your Time, and Kleeer's Get Tough.

Disco related advertising in VG was nothing new because CBS Records in Norway started a service in the newspaper in 1979 where people could call a number, and hear a snippet of the next big Disco hit record. The first record used in the service was Anita Ward's Ring My Bell that would become a number one single in Norway. Other Disco records that did well on the Norwegian charts were Baccara's Yes Sir I Can Boogie, Gloria Gaynor's I Will Survive, Chic's Le Freak, and Good Times, Sister Sledge's We Are Family, and He's The Greatest Dancer, Ottawan's D.I.S.C.O., the Saturday Night Fever and Thank God It's Friday soundtracks, Leon Haywood's Don't Push It Don't Force It, The Whispers' And The Beat Goes On, any Earth Wind & Fire, Chaka Khan, Donna Summer, Village People, Bee Gees, Abba, etc...



The first crossover Rap record, Sugarhill Gang's Rappers Delight, peaked at number two on the Norwegian pop charts in 1980, shortly followed by two other Rap records in the Norwegian Top 10, Rap-O Clap-O by Joe Bataan, and Rhythm Talk by Jocko. After the release of those records it became a common thing among the more upfront DJ's to Rap over the various Disco records, and sometimes DJ's would make their own raps to introduce themselves and to hype the crowds, so in that respect Hip-hop was introduced to Norway by club DJ's.

The common language used by DJ's to talk and rap on the mic was English for Norwegian as well as foreign DJ's playing in Norway. DJ's from the UK were plenty in Norway in the early years of Disco, and some of the best DJ's in Norway were British, such as DJ Gary Dean who would mix records just as well as the best DJ's in the US, and would play the same music that was hot in the clubs stateside.

As far as Norwegian artists putting out Disco records there were close to no real Disco cuts made in Norway. The exceptions being artists and bands doing Norwegian cover versions of Disco hits. There were plenty of artists making Soul, Jazz, and Funk influenced music however, such as Frode Thingnes, Jon Eberson, Inger Lise Rypdal, Jonas Fjeld Band, Alex, Lava that featured Randy Crawford as their singer on a couple of albums, and Drama that changed their name to Creation in the mid 80's and released the 12" I'm Going Up in 1985, on the Desperado label, with a Swedish remix by Fredrik Ramel who also did most of the remixes for the Swedish dance label Beat Box that put out remixes of Italian Disco records mostly. I'm Going Up is now much in demand among Boogie collectors, and fetches about $100 when it shows up.

Comedy acts like Prima Vera would do mediocre Norwegian cover versions of international Disco hits in the late 70's. The first serious quality Disco record from Norway actually didn't come out until 1984 with the duo Avalanche's 12" single Heaven Tonight. Avalanche were Norwegian, but had German production, and were signed to the German label Metronome Records. They followed Heaven Tonight with several more 12" singles during the late 80's, and early 90's.



The only Norwegian club hit before that was Oslo's New Wave artist Beranek with his 7" 45 only release Dra Te' Helvette (Go To Hell), that was a number one single in Norway in 1981, even if it was banned from national radio because of the title and lyrics about shooting up Heroin, and some record stores wouldn't sell it cause it had a picture of a naked ass with a syringe labeled Disco on the front cover. Beranek released a couple of 12" singles and albums in the early 80's, but they were aimed at the New Wave / Punk crowd more than the Disco crowd. For some reason Norwegian labels and artists seemed to have a problem taking Disco music seriously, and Norway was always a little late to pick up on new musical trends compared to the other Scandinavian contries, which is the main reasons there are very few Norwegian Disco records. It took A-ha to make it big worldwide with Take On Me, (Released in 1984), in the late 80's, for other Norwegian artists to realize that it was possible to make it big internationally with a dance record, although the Progressive Rock band Popol Ace, later turned Popol Vuh, were close in the mid 70's when they almost signed a deal with Frank Zappa.



In the US on July 12th. 1979, the infamous Disco Demolition Night took place, where American radio DJ Steve Dahl had people bring their Disco records to a sports event in Chicago to start a giant fire and burn the records. In reality, a racist and anti-gay mediahype promoted by Rock DJ's and music industry people who were stuck in the past, and hated the fact that Disco had taken Rock & Roll's spot as the most popular culture and music. It was an attempt to end Disco that also made it to the Norwegian newspapers in 1980, backed by certain people in the Norwegian press, under the headlines of Disco Is Dead! A lot of people took that literally, some clubs were shut down, and some DJ's quit because they genuinely believed that Disco was indeed dead.

So was that the end of clubbing and DJ'ing in Norway? No, it was just the beginning.


To be continued...


© Uncut Productions - 2009